To Grow or Not To Grow

Joshua Maddux: 00:00:25

Welcome back to in the.

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Every business owner has faced challenges, and we love to

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tell and share those stories.

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Today.

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We have Mike Rosenberg in the bunker with us.

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Mike was faced with the challenge of, to grow or not grow his business.

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Mike has 20 plus years of experience in marketing and PR.

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And there's so much to unpack on this conversation and I'm super

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excited to jump in and discuss this.

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Let's welcome, Mike to the shell.

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Could I have you on before we jump into this topic, let's

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really understand who you are.

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How'd you get here?

Joshua Maddux: 00:01:01

What do you do?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:01:01

Great.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:01:02

Yeah, I don't think we have time to, to fully understand it, but so

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I'll give you, the quick overview.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:01:06

So currently and for the last oh 10 years or so, I've been

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the CEO of veracity marketing.

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We are a PR and content marketing and digital PR agency based up in Portland

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work with a variety of clients, our sort of target tends to be folks in the B2B

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industrial and in high-tech kind of a.

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Businessy businesses.

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We like to say how did I get here?

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I actually started out in sports marketing always played sports in my life and all

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my life and had that dream to work in the sports world, whether it was for a

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team or something did that did actually do that for awhile branched out and

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did had my own consultancy after that.

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And then got a little frustrated with.

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That industry years ago where, whenever we had a question of

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why are we doing it this way?

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It was always because we've always done it that way.

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I, like I said, I got frustrated with that and met with a friend who was starting

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a digital marketing agency, specifically a search engine marketing agency.

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This is early two thousands.

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And when the question came up is, how are we going to do it?

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Why are we doing it that.

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The answer was, we don't know, cause it hasn't really been done yet.

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And that was very exciting.

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So help build that into a, it came to an acquisition, which was our goal there.

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And then joined veracity, which was actually started it was a PR

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specifically a PR firm started by my wife joined her and started building

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out the digital side of what we do.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:02:20

So that's the quick

Joshua Maddux: 00:02:22

As you started this PR agency, obviously, being

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an entrepreneur, being a business owner, there's always a desire to.

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Grow to, achieve that next goal.

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What was that growth trajectory that you guys had set?

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What does that look like today as well?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:02:41

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:02:41

It's quite different today than when it was the background of the agency

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starting it actually started, so my wife used to like I said, she's

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my business partner and she was a.

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Worked for a few PR agencies, a couple of the big PR agencies in Portland.

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And then she made a career transition.

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As we were thinking about kids into real estate.

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She got recruited over to actually sell a big condo project.

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That was great.

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She was doing the sales and the marketing for that.

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It worked out along with kids coming along.

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That was 2007, 2008, a little bit of a recession coming a

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little bit of a housing bubble.

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Everything was late, of course.

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And so instead of the timing working perfectly to then take a break to have

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our son, everything ran over super busy.

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Then decided to really take a break and really enjoyed the marketing piece.

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I think even more than the real estate piece, she has a big passion for that,

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but decided to, just to go back in and, raise the, raise our son for a little

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bit, but then wanted to work still.

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So she started veracity basically as a PR consultant, she had a few

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clients, et cetera, et cetera.

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That.

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We did that.

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I was working for got acquired and the timing just worked out where she

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was starting to turn business away.

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And I came over and said, okay let's build this.

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We see actually at this time now had two little kids.

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And part of our reason for doing it together was we could sustain,

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we could make enough money to live.

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We could, share raising our kids.

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We could share running this business in this sort of short-term goal.

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There was just sorta make it through when they were little.

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And it was in the basement of our house.

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All that sort of stuff.

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But we also had plans of what are we going to do when they start to go to school

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full time and what are our ultimate goals?

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One of those goals that we identified was actually, this was

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one, her name is Amy identity.

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I want to be the biggest, or I think it was the biggest PR for before.

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It's what does that mean?

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Does that mean you make the most money?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:04:21

Do you have the most clients?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:04:22

Do you have the most employees, but that was just the Archie goal, right?

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But that was eventually, but the short-term goals for that was make

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enough money so that you can live the life that you want to have

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it as be a lifestyle business.

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Now, a lot of businesses do that, for some sort of time forever, it's all they

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retire until they, give it to their kids.

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Sell it to somebody else, other businesses, like the

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one that I helped start before this acquisition was the goal.

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We wanted some sort of action.

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So we had short term and then the long-term was this nebulous.

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Now of course we put together, here's where we want to be financially.

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Here's the number of clients we think it's going to take to get us there,

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the number of employees or contractors or whatever, to get us there.

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And that sort of evolved over time.

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One of the things that's interesting about it, we built the business based on

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kind of the way that our kids grew up.

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So it's grown along as they've grown.

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The more that they're out, doing things.

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The bigger we got, they were out of the house, we moved out

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of the house and got an office.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:17

All those sorts of things were pieces on it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:20

Got it.

Joshua Maddux: 00:05:20

You know it with any business as you're growing that, and

Joshua Maddux: 00:05:24

you're figuring out, like you said, making the income that you need.

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But having that goal of being the biggest PR firm, in.

Joshua Maddux: 00:05:34

In Portland, obviously, there's other PR firms in the area, is

Joshua Maddux: 00:05:38

that a goal that has changed or is that a goal that you've achieved?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:43

I say we certainly haven't achieved it, but as I

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:46

mentioned before, it's a nebulous goal.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:48

It's just one of those, in fact, I think it's an ego goal.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:50

I would say one of the other things I said, is it biggest or best?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:54

I personally would say that we're probably the best.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:05:56

It also depends on how you define PR the various things that you do.

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I'm sure there's other firms that are better at certain pieces of PR than we

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are, like, for example investor relations.

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Isn't something we do a lot of.

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So if that's what people think of, when they think of PR.

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Are we the best at that?

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Or the biggest?

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Absolutely not.

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When it, when they talk about getting their client media

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relations and media results.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:06:16

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:06:16

We could be considered the best at that.

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And then, like many industries in the agency.

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Even oftentimes those agencies are acquired by other bigger agencies.

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So who even knows, which one is which when it comes to that.

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But, I th I think the bigger thing is, is that, was that the right goal

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to have it's something to strive for?

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It's something to say, this is what's going to drive you, but now we start

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to look at it as where our goals are now is, are we happy with the.

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Are we happy with the work we're doing or our employees and the folks

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that we partner with happy are we doing good work by our clients?

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And are we making an income that that we're happy and satisfied with?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:06:51

So I think that's where our goals have moved and changed.

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That first.

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Five-year economic goal was just I'm the numbers guy, right?

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It was just based on, okay, we grow this percent, we get this

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many people we're gonna, be where we quote unquote want to be.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:07:03

One of the things that I've found and I know it's true for most

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businesses, bigger doesn't necessarily mean you're making more money or

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doing better work or any of that.

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So you start to, to go through it and say, okay we need X number of employees to get

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this amount of monthly revenue coming in.

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But at the end of the day, are you doing better work?

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Are you happier?

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Are you making more money?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:07:24

Not necessarily.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:07:25

But I, th there's scales and tipping points and that I've seen along the way.

Joshua Maddux: 00:07:29

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:07:29

And I definitely can relate to that, with our team owning a digital agency, we're

Joshua Maddux: 00:07:33

a team of five and there was a point where we had nine and I either needed to.

Joshua Maddux: 00:07:40

Bring on someone else who could project manage and literally split the team in

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half and have sort of two teams internal, which Mount now means more overhead

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because there's more project management, there's more, more layers with that.

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And then, me taking a higher, business, directional goal aspect,

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and then continuing to grow that.

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And it's all a hundred percent possible.

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:01

It just is what has.

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Do you want that business to become, do you want it to be something,

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:08

do you want to have a PR firm that has a big giant office with 150

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:13

employees that come in every day?

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Or do you want a PR firm that allows you to take a two-week vacation and not worry

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:21

about the 150 employee who is, and because you don't have 150 employees and that I

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:26

think is where so many business owners.

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Really start to struggle with, I want to have this massively quote unquote

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:37

like successful business and successful, sadly, oftentimes as associated with,

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:42

number of employees or size of the office or, whatever that metric is,

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:47

and it doesn't need to be successful, for me my wife and I had a kid in

Joshua Maddux: 00:08:51

February and I was able to take a few weeks off work and I work from home.

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I'm sitting in my garage and, in a small office that we've built out and not

Joshua Maddux: 00:09:02

having to commute two hours each way to, an office in downtown LA or whatever.

Joshua Maddux: 00:09:06

And for me, that.

Joshua Maddux: 00:09:08

The successful aspect.

Joshua Maddux: 00:09:10

It's being able to have that family time being able to have that

Joshua Maddux: 00:09:12

flexibility more rather than an office with a hundred plus employees.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:19

Yeah, for sure.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:20

And I think also as a business owner, it, a lot of it boils down to also what

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:24

do you want to do, and what I mean, like your day to day, do you want to

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:27

continue to do whether it's the project management or, the, in the weeds work or

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:32

the client interaction or, et cetera, and.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:36

If that's some, if you want to continue to do that of course you can hire people

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:40

to do, the tasks and things that you don't want to do, but if that's the role you

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:44

want to keep having, and you're happy with it, maybe it doesn't make sense to grow.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:47

If one of the early on things I remember talking with a coach was, the

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:52

different stages of a business from being self-employed to, being a small

Mike Rosenberg: 00:09:56

business owner, to being an investor.

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Those are, I'm butchering it somehow exactly how they say a

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:01

much more eloquent, not my job.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:03

That, that was how I originally built it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:04

It was like, okay.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:05

So I want to go from being self-employed okay.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:08

Then to being a small business owner, and then, at some point, do I want

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:10

to be an investor in this business and then go do different things.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:15

That's a question.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:15

I think a lot of business owners, I'm sure they have asked

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:17

themselves, but need to continue to ask themselves as they're going.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:20

And then.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:21

Are these steps going to help take me closer to that.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:24

So if my goal is to become an investor in this business, maybe you

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:28

do respond to those emails, talking about people, wanting to buy it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:30

Continuing that way.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:31

I don't know if you get those, but those are my current annoyance in the inbox.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:35

But that's just because I'm not in that position right now.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:37

Like I want to keep building it myself.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:39

So again, I think that the thing there is it's like you said, it's not.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:44

It doesn't have to be perfectly where, what's perceived to be, a

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:48

good business or a big business.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:50

I've talked with plenty and worked with plenty people who have, hundreds of

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:53

employees and it seems like everything from the outside is going amazing.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:10:58

And it's yeah, but we're actually, we're a lot more profitable.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:11:03

Before we hit that 50 employee mark or that 10 employee mark or whatever it is.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:11:06

And then I think a lot of people in the last couple of years with the pandemic

Mike Rosenberg: 00:11:10

and living at, working from home and reevaluating priorities, I think there's

Mike Rosenberg: 00:11:14

a lot more people who are coming on to that, that it doesn't have to be what

Mike Rosenberg: 00:11:17

that, old school view of success was.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:18

And I think the other aspect with that, I know that I've seen.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:23

You also have employees who are okay with not working a 40 hour week now

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:31

they've realized that there's a lot of stuff in their life that they cut

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:34

out expense wise, that, if you're not driving, in LA you could, you can go

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:40

20 miles and have a two hour commute.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:42

It's ridiculous.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:43

And if you're not spending four hours in the car every day,

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:45

that's a heck of a lot of gas.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:46

You can take a pay cut, you can take less hour a week job.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:51

You can, you can spend that money elsewhere.

Joshua Maddux: 00:11:54

And so I think that's where so many businesses have seen flexibility in that.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:01

I know some local businesses in the LA area who would only hire

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:05

local talent, who could be in the office and then they realize.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:10

The pandemic and realized the ability to hire anyone in the us.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:15

They're like that changes our talent pool.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:18

We now can hire anyone anywhere.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:20

And it's a very different, different element.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:24

You can have someone who's, in New York or Florida or whatever that

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:28

has a three hour time difference.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:29

That is going to be able to be online three hours before.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:33

Your staff in LA is an instantly, that gives you an additional

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:37

few hours of client support.

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:38

And you don't have to pay someone to, get up and be in the office

Joshua Maddux: 00:12:42

at five o'clock in the morning

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:44

because they're doing it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:46

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:47

I think, it's interesting, we've been through I feel like almost

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:50

every sort of employee contractor, whatever situation and I'm sure it'll

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:54

continue to change too, from having only full-time folks to, to work.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:12:58

, part-time working, mothers was one of the things we thought, we could get

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:01

there's, especially in the PR world, we felt like there was this great talent

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:04

pool, that worked for a while and maybe took a break for kids or whatever.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:07

And then maybe didn't want to come back and go into an office and,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:10

didn't want to have that full-time job, but had this great knowledge.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:12

And before.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:13

So we worked with some folks who were like that, speaking of, now it's for

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:17

us, at least it's a hybrid, right?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:18

We've got some folks who are quote unquote full-time employees, we gave up our

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:22

office and haven't gone back to it yet in Portland, but we just hired a person.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:27

In the St.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:27

Louis area.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:28

And that's worked out great, like you said, we've got, so now

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:30

we've got, east coast, Midwest.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:32

We don't have anybody in that mountain time yet.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:33

So that, that hour we don't quite have covered, but maybe that's the next one

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:36

will be, somebody in Montana or something.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:38

But in an, of course, our Western.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:40

But w like you were saying, we found it's been great to have those diverse

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:43

work hours to, I love having stuff in my inbox when I get there in the

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:47

morning, because I know that somebody has been working a couple of hours, but

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:50

also it does, they don't necessarily have had to have been working from

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:55

eight o'clock their local time either.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:56

I think a lot of.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:13:57

I think for a lot of employees and where the, the really, especially they get into

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:01

man wants that flexibility of time, not only location and time zone time, but like

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:07

you work with what works for you, right?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:09

There's all kinds of studies talk about when people do their best

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:12

work and when they're the most productive and, it's the ability for

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:15

the most part to, to be flexible in.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:18

I think is going to be a big win for everybody that can do it, oh, you

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:22

want to do yoga every day at nine o'clock that's a part of your schedule.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:25

And, don't build meetings that you need to be at around that time of your

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:28

nine o'clock central time or whatever.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:30

Great.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:30

We'll block that in the calendar for you and you're getting your work done.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:33

Awesome.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:14:34

But that's the perfect scenario.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:37

Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:38

And our team is almost the same thing with, being able to.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:42

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:42

You want to take a two hour lunch and, do a workout or get your

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:45

grocery shopping in during that time, rather than trying to grocery shop

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:49

at five 30 when everybody else's.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:51

Yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great element.

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:53

We had a designer that worked for the company for a while that

Joshua Maddux: 00:14:56

would go surfing in the morning and the days that he went surfing.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:02

Where the days that he did his best design work on bet.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:05

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:06

And so it was like, I don't care that you're going to be two hours late,

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:10

like getting in the office because I know the work you're going to

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:13

produce today is going to be awesome.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:15

It's going to be great.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:17

And so it also, not only does it provide that flexibility,

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:22

but it provides the aspect of.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:26

No, if you're not having to sit there all day while you're working going,

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:30

I'm going to have to fight people at the grocery store at five o'clock

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:32

like this, even a pain, like

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:35

knowing that you can go during lunch or go early in the morning

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:38

and just take care of that.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:40

And then you're not sitting there thinking through that and focusing on that all day

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:44

in the back of your head, it's one less distraction to not have to worry about.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:49

And it just, not only does it make your Workday better, it makes.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:53

You're just overall quality of life better.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:56

It just it's.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:58

It's nice.

Joshua Maddux: 00:15:59

It's nice to be able to have that flexibility.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:01

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:02

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:02

I, makes you think about whether it's worth like work, like the work-life

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:06

balance or, what, we talked about it as work-life flow where it's it

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:09

just goes in and out and especially for, owners and entrepreneurs.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:15

It isn't necessarily your on and off, right?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:17

I know that's for sure.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:18

True for me, I don't, you're talking about, taking time off for the

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:22

kids or taking vacations and one.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:24

I think that one of the things that, that's another growth question.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:27

Eventually you go back to that, investor piece, that's where you're, you have that

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:31

ability it's, part of that is, what's going to happen when I leave the office.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:33

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:34

I can't leave, first one is I can't leave cause nothing's going to get done.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:36

The second one is, yeah, I can leave, but I need to be, it's gotta be for a short

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:40

amount of time and I need to be avoiding.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:43

And then of course, the next step is, yeah, I can leave and trust that,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:45

things are going to get done without me.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:47

It's going to be totally fine.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:48

Maybe if there's an emergency.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:50

And I think that.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:51

For me is getting to that point is where I want our company to go.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:55

Pseudo there, but back to that, work-life sort of flow balance thing,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:16:59

for me, it's now it actually had this even before the pandemic being with

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:04

the ability to work from anywhere.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:05

And even have different times that you're working, it's not going to be turn it off.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:09

I don't think it's going to be turned off for many business owners.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:11

But it's knowing that, okay.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:13

I can get.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:14

On vacation, maybe I get up early and get that couple of hours of work done

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:18

and be able to enjoy my time, as opposed to, I'm going to take these two weeks

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:22

and be away and completely unplugged.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:24

Now that's needed for some people at some points where, you've got your

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:27

head down grinding for a long time.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:28

You need that, completely unplugged time.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:30

As long as I've owned this business, I haven't had that nor have I wanted it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:34

And so I think that's a part of deciding how you want to grow as well.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:17:38

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:17:39

Yeah, for sure.

Joshua Maddux: 00:17:41

I know there's a saying that goes, you're either a business owner or

Joshua Maddux: 00:17:46

owned by your business and it's super resonates because yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:17:53

There's days where I'm like, I can't leave the office because who's going

Joshua Maddux: 00:17:57

to make sure the stuff gets done and.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:02

If that's the mindset, then you have the wrong people in place, or you haven't

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:07

provided the right training to the team.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:10

And so when my wife and I first found out we were pregnant, it was sweet.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:17

I got about eight months to make sure the team's ready.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:20

Because I'm going to be taken about two to three weeks off.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:22

Now it wasn't two to three weeks.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:23

Me, no cell phone, no, communication, but it was.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:28

About a week and a half of pretty much other than a 9 1, 1

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:31

slack message I wasn't around.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:34

And then another maybe week or so of I checked email, I was maybe, touch

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:41

base on a weekly call with the team.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:43

And other than that, it wasn't a ton and then slowly eased

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:47

back into it a little bit.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:49

And it's interesting when you step out.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:52

And legitimately step away and the team knows that they have to

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:57

step up to make things happen.

Joshua Maddux: 00:18:59

It's interesting to see how they fill the gap and it works.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:19:04

I, did you get in pleasantly surprised by it?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:19:06

Absolutely.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:19:07

We have a couple of times for sure.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:09

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:11

And I did something a few years ago that dramatically changed my life.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:18

Sort of work-life balance or flow was disabled email notifications on my phone.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:25

And I could get a hundred notifications on a Saturday afternoon, but unless I

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:30

launched the app, I will have no idea.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:33

Now, granted, if there is a server that goes down or a fire that pops

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:37

up, I get a slack notification because we have systems in place that

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:41

monitor all those 9 1, 1 type issues.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:44

But for the most part,

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:48

At the park or, whatever I'm out.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:51

I don't want to see it deal with it, know about it.

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:54

And when I get back and I think that's something that sort of having those

Joshua Maddux: 00:19:59

boundaries a little bit, is really good.

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:02

And also making sure that those are in place for, for the team as well.

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:06

Is.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:09

Setting those expectations with the rest of your team, for sure.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:12

I think is key.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:13

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:13

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:14

Not having those constant notifications when they don't,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:17

you don't really need them.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:18

That's definitely important.

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:19

I actually know, I know of a company that their system won't receive

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:25

email after 5:00 PM or before 8:00 AM.

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:29

Like it just holds it in queue and then everybody would get the

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:32

email the next morning because they don't want their team touching it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:36

And the, that's, one of my favorite features of

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:38

email is this the send later, right?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:40

Just because I'm maybe doing something at night or, I, I want, I don't want

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:43

my people to see that, especially internally, you can get it in the

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:46

morning and that's completely fine.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:48

Cause even though you say it a hundred times, like you don't need to respond

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:51

to this, you don't need to do this now.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:20:54

Just not even having it be an option, I think is oftentimes

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:57

Oh, and you're out at dinner, you get that

Joshua Maddux: 00:20:59

notification now you're, you're out at dinner with some friends.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:02

Now, your mind, isn't thinking about the conversation you're having,

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:05

it's thinking about that problem or that thing you need to do tomorrow.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:09

And yeah, Slack's added that now the send later function, there'll

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:13

be times where Dan o'clock at night, I'm like, oh, dang it.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:16

I need to ask so-and-so to get this done.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:18

And I'm like, send it 9:30 AM.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:21

Because I don't want that done tonight.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:25

It doesn't need to be done tonight and tomorrow is fine.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:29

Sure.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:31

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:32

It's good.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:32

Obviously, you guys have been faced with this aspect of, to grow or not

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:36

grow in hiring people like you talked about, whether it's full-time or

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:40

remote or part-time or contractor, and, there's all different aspects there.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:46

In California state laws in California are a mess for subcontracting it's

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:52

anyway, not even gonna go into that.

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:53

And what is that look like for you guys that decision of stay the size

Joshua Maddux: 00:21:58

you're at or what Drupal the company or, know, what is that decision like?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:04

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:04

It's interesting cause we're, we're in the middle of it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:07

One of the things that, that we did during COVID internally was actually

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:11

treat ourselves like a client.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:12

We started doing a lot more marketing for ourselves.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:15

And we're seeing that pay off.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:16

We're seeing that pay off with, new client leads and new clients coming in.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:20

And what we found is, we can be a bit more selective which is nice.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:25

That means growth assuming that we want to do it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:28

And we're certainly not at the point where, we're ready to

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:30

be like, okay, this is good.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:32

This is the ultimate thing.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:32

The exact place that we want to be.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:34

I'm honestly not even totally sure where that's going to be.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:37

But what we're trying to do.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:39

And a lot of it is, I think stress-relief too is getting in front of it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:43

So we're trying to get the people in place on our team ahead of the growth which

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:48

I think can be, is really advantageous because those are the times as a

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:53

business owner, you're stressed out.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:54

It's oh, who's going to do.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:56

Wait, who ends up being you, right?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:22:58

It's oh, now again, maybe I'm back to doing the things that, that

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:02

I don't really want to be doing.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:04

But we know that they have to get done in the meantime.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:06

And it's a tough hiring market right now, too.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:08

That's kinda, getting ahead of it makes a lot more sense in that capacity.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:13

So it's hard and there's a lot of planning there.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:16

We have, I think th you know, that we're not sure we have, I

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:20

haven't got there completely to know exactly what that looks like.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:24

That sort of original goal that we talked about being the biggest

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:26

PR firm, in Portland that's gone to the wayside cause one.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:31

Half of our, work's not even in Portland, have our clients

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:33

aren't even necessarily here.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:35

So what is that kind of, I think I said it at the time.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:38

What does that even mean?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:38

And I think not worrying about those Eagle or external sort of

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:42

like goals in mind, it's just.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:45

Growing it and having, I think the biggest thing is, when your employees

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:48

or contractors are, encouraging folks that they know that they work with to,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:52

to become partners that to me is what it feels, when people are coming in that way,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:56

so I don't have a perfect answer for it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:23:59

I think everybody asks you evaluate it on their own.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:01

I'm in my mid forties and I feel like this is peak working time, so it feels.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:06

Now's the time to go.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:07

I originally was talking about, having kids, I've got one in high school,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:11

pretty soon moving along to college, it's okay, now I'll have even more

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:15

time to, to enjoy growing the business.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:17

And I think to me that's key of it is it's not doing it cause you have

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:20

to, ideally it's doing it because you want to, and you're making sure

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:23

that you have the pieces in place for yourself and your employees.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:26

And of course, doing good work for the clients as well.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:24:29

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:29

I think that's a super key element with any business.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:33

If you're growing a business, you thoroughly enjoy, getting in the office,

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:37

you enjoy the people you work with, the clients you work with and the work you

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:40

do, there's so much less stress there.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:44

There's so much less anxiety and just all of that.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:48

You want to do more?

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:50

You want to grow it.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:51

You want to have more clients of those amazing clients who work with you want to

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:55

have more team members like the awesome team members you already work with.

Joshua Maddux: 00:24:59

And so it's you just, you want more of what you already have and it's just

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:04

continuing to grow that a little bit.

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:06

Definitely can see.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:08

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:08

And yeah, you can also, I don't know, you get to the part where

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:12

you do, you know everybody, that's, you don't necessarily have to but

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:17

I think that's another piece of it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:19

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:20

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:20

That's good.

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:21

We've chatted through this topic of growth and employment and work life balance.

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:27

And what would be your advice for someone who's challenging, challenged with that

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:35

aspect of, do we grow the business?

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:37

Do we not?

Joshua Maddux: 00:25:39

And what that looks like will be that sort of no advice to someone who's facing that?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:45

I think the biggest thing is.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:49

I would say, take a step back from what your business goals are and

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:53

where do you want to be in life.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:54

And I don't think that you have to do it, there's always, 3, 5, 10 years, I think,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:25:59

look at it that way and start thinking about it and know that things can change.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:02

But I think understanding like what you want to do.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:05

Where you want to be and knowing that it doesn't always have to be bigger, to be

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:10

better, I think is a good place to be.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:13

I think that's the main thing I would do is, what are your sort of, like I said,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:15

life, family type goals, and how's the business going to help you get there.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:20

And good enough might be good enough in that aspect.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:26:24

It doesn't always have to be bigger.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:28

That's really good.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:29

Simon Sinek has.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:31

I was just looking up on my shelf, Simon Sinek.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:33

There's a book called find your why.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:35

And another one start with why.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:37

And I think you hit it basically with what you just said.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:41

Like it's literally, if your business supports your personal mission statement

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:49

and is right alongside that, then.

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:51

How can the business further support that?

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:53

But if the business is 100% against your sort of why your personal life or

Joshua Maddux: 00:26:59

personal sort of mission statement, then you got to change it or do something

Joshua Maddux: 00:27:06

or sell and get rid of the business.

Joshua Maddux: 00:27:08

Or you got to think personal first.

Joshua Maddux: 00:27:12

And how does the business support that?

Joshua Maddux: 00:27:15

I think that's really good.

Joshua Maddux: 00:27:16

He's

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:16

gotta be yours too.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:17

Oh, so many people, oh, I want to do this.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:20

And I'm going to work really hard so I can retire.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:22

Here the whole time, what are you going to do when you retire?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:24

I don't hear all the time.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:25

I'm not that old, but it's like, why?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:26

I don't know if I am right.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:28

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:28

I'll probably be doing something different, but.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:31

That's a, that's not I don't think that, work hard for 40 years

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:33

and then retire and do nothing.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:35

That's not where I want to be.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:36

There are plenty of people in this world who do and, having that big,

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:39

huge agency that you know, sells for, for exit evaluation, et cetera.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:44

That could be a goal, put your head down and doing that that I'm sure

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:46

that is a goal for a lot of folks, which is totally fine, but I just, I

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:50

think just by UCF cynics, find your, why get in there try to understand.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:55

And I would say, you're going to talk to whether it's partners, whether

Mike Rosenberg: 00:27:57

it's business partners, family, partners, whatever, and make sure

Mike Rosenberg: 00:28:00

that it all aligns too, because I think there's definitely times where.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:28:04

You have preconceived notions of what your partners in life and business want

Mike Rosenberg: 00:28:08

to do which may or may not be accurate.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:12

Yeah.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:12

Yeah, definitely true.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:14

And in the aspect of retiring you don't have to retire, you don't have to retire.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:17

If you can work anywhere.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:18

Like for me, literally, all I need is a laptop and my cell phone.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:22

It's funny.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:22

One of our designers was traveling and seeing some family.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:27

We're on a mock-up review call with a client.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:29

I was like, yeah, we needed to shift the call an hour or something

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:32

because he's Midwest or something.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:35

And it's really funny because client didn't realize it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:28:41

And

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:42

no one cares, like if you are doing a mock-up review or, you're

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:46

getting your work done, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in your office, you're

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:48

sitting on your couch, you're sitting at a coffee shop or sitting on the beach.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:53

Like the same work gets done either way.

Joshua Maddux: 00:28:56

And so if you're able to be on, a beach and getting stuff done and having a

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:02

better, scenic view or whatever, and, your lunch break is going for a swim

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:07

or whatever that looks like it's a much more enjoyable work-life balance.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:14

And it's, it's.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:29:16

Yeah.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:29:16

And you'll do better work.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:18

Absolutely.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:19

Absolutely.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:21

Awesome.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:21

I think there's been a ton of good information and just really breaking down

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:28

the aspect of that element of like success and how we see that just in our society

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:36

a little bit, and it doesn't have to be.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:39

You're the biggest, you're the number one, whatever metric you want to

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:44

measure that by, it's more, how does your business fulfill your personal

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:50

mission and your personal, why?

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:52

And if it fulfills it and supports it, then that's a huge achievement.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:57

That's a huge achievement.

Joshua Maddux: 00:29:58

You've started a business, you fulfill the personal mission and and a Y.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:03

Pat yourself on the back.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:04

That's so much more than so many business owners have done.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:08

And it's a story that we would love to hear and we love to share appreciate Mike.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:12

You've been on the show today and We'll have your full bio and website, Facebook,

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:18

Instagram, LinkedIn, all those links will be in the show notes, but if someone

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:23

wants to connect with you, what is the best spot online for them to do that?

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:27

For listeners, this I'd say probably LinkedIn

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:29

Mike Rosenberg on LinkedIn, my websites, veracity agency.com.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:34

I actually have a ton of resources on the learning side.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:37

Somebody who wants to learn stuff about PR digital PR that as I mentioned, or

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:42

doing marketing for ourselves, it's all thought leadership stuff where

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:45

we're sharing our insights and what we know with the world, trying to get

Mike Rosenberg: 00:30:48

people better educated on our industry.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:51

Awesome.

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:51

appreciate you coming on and sharing a little bit about your business

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:56

and your knowledge and background and some of the stuff that you

Joshua Maddux: 00:30:59

guys have ventured through and

Mike Rosenberg: 00:31:01

appreciate it.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:31:02

Absolutely.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:31:03

Thanks for having me.

Mike Rosenberg: 00:31:04

Awesome.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:05

Awesome.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:05

Thanks.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:05

Thanks for being on.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:07

Thanks for listening to this episode of, in the bunker.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:10

As always we can be found on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:14

at, in the bunker podcast.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:17

Be sure to share this episode and what you're going to apply from it.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:22

And how that can affect your business, make sure to tag us in that post so

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:26

we can highlight your journey as well.

Joshua Maddux: 00:31:29

But before you go.